FA Cup 1871/1872

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CanaryHatter
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Re: FA Cup 1871/1872

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anthony.brown wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:23 pm The only club colours which I've found no evidence for is the magenta and white, which, even if correct, would not have been in use in 1865!
Hi Anthony,

This has been edited accordingly in the Club history section of the website, as per the message I just sent over. As you uncover more evidence, I'm more than happy to edit this accordingly.

:big_grin:


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Re: FA Cup 1871/1872

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CanaryHatter wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:45 pm
anthony.brown wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:49 pm Match 1 Clapham Rovers 3 Upton Park 0
Hi Anthony, was it the Sportsman Newspaper that listed this as match one? I wondered if you'd ever come across any kick-off times too? Would be great if we were able to show that the FA Cup actually kicked off in (or around) Hitchin. As in the first kick of the ball.
My numbering, for convenience only. I'll keep adding match reports above; when complete we may find the answer!
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Re: FA Cup 1871/1872

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With four matches kicking off that day, ours was at 3pm, as the Sportsman newspaper suggests. Regarding the others, Ian Chester has unearthed that the match at Clapham Rovers kicked off at 3:30pm, but is yet to find the KO time for the others. So that's one down, two to go.

He's also (so far) of the opinion that the match took place at Hitchin Hill. Do we know where this is yet?
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Re: FA Cup 1871/1872

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I'd say that Hitchin Hill is the most likely. The only clue we have for the site of the cricket ground is Reginald Hine's History of Hitchin, which states that Peter Delme Radcliffe provided a spacious ground, close to his mansion on Hitchin Hill 'in aristocratic seclusion'. The Radcliffe's Priory Estate was extensive, and London Road was on one side. Hine also mentions that the cricket ground was used until 1925, when the Willmott building company built on the land. So, if you can find where the buildings went up in 1925/6...........
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Re: FA Cup 1871/1872

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Wow....this is fantastic stuff Anthony. Yes I'm very interested too and really appreciate you taking the time to look into this in such depth. As you may well be aware, we will be hoping to celebrate the competition in some form next season. Keep it coming!
"We should laugh more". Kate Deller, April 2022.
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Re: FA Cup 1871/1872

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anthony.brown wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:23 pm I can't wait to see a book about the first FA Cup that does NOT insist that the Hitchin v Palace match was played at Top Field, and that DOES say that William Tindall Lucas played in that match rather than 'William Lucas, a 39 year old farmer'!
The only club colours which I've found no evidence for is the magenta and white, which, even if correct, would not have been in use in 1865!
Hi Anthony - here is the book I was talking about, it was published in the mid 1980s by a group called ‘the association of football statisticians’.

The line ups shown are the ones you have, so likely taken from the same source. Unfortunately no location or colour information. Booooo!!!

However it covers all games from 1871-1881, so if you’re interested in the Hitchin lineups from the other matches in this period, just shout
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Re: FA Cup 1871/1872

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anthony.brown wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:23 pm The only club colours which I've found no evidence for is the magenta and white, which, even if correct, would not have been in use in 1865!
Hi Anthony - also just do you're aware I've contacted the collections department of the National Football Museum, the archives for which are based at Preston's Deepdale ground and contain the elusive Charles Alcock Annuals from 1871-1873. Unfortunately Covid is causing even more misery as this was the automated reply I received:

Thank you very much for contacting the Collections team at the National Football Museum. Unfortunately due to the closure of the museum and staff either working from home or being furloughed, our response times might be longer than usual. We aim to respond to your message within 4 weeks.

You may be wondering why I'm so keen on knowing the colours. This is because I'm currently overlooking the production and delivery of the anniversary shirt which the Club are producing next season and so want the colours selected to be as accurate as possible.

I'll keep you updated if I do hear back.

Thanks - Stewart
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Re: FA Cup 1871/1872

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CanaryHatter wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:56 pm
anthony.brown wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:23 pm I can't wait to see a book about the first FA Cup that does NOT insist that the Hitchin v Palace match was played at Top Field, and that DOES say that William Tindall Lucas played in that match rather than 'William Lucas, a 39 year old farmer'!
The only club colours which I've found no evidence for is the magenta and white, which, even if correct, would not have been in use in 1865!
Hi Anthony - here is the book I was talking about, it was published in the mid 1980s by a group called ‘the association of football statisticians’.

The line ups shown are the ones you have, so likely taken from the same source. Unfortunately no location or colour information. Booooo!!!

However it covers all games from 1871-1881, so if you’re interested in the Hitchin lineups from the other matches in this period, just shout
I already have it in my collection of books. Even the statisticians don't have a definitive list of players: newspapers would often give differing versions of players' names. One newspaper split Lieutenant Renny-Tailyour (R.E.) into two, stating that Renny and Tailyour both played in a match. The William Lucas/William Tindall Lucas confusion by Palace writers also creates a situation whereby the error remains on the web even when it has been nailed (William Tindall Lucas must be right.)
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Re: FA Cup 1871/1872

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anthony.brown wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:46 pm THE FOOTBALL ANNUAL FOR 1871
The second edition of this work, edited by Charles W. Alcock, hon. secretary of the Football Association,.................includes a list of all clubs in England and Scotland, particulars of their formation, their locations, etc.....................
Hi Anthony - I've just seen a screenshot which I believe backs up your thoughts that the answers to our questions are in these Charles Alcock Annuals. Here is a screenshot from the 1874 edition, showing an insert for Rangers. This displays ground location and club colours. The good news is, I believe I've tracked down another source of the books - The RFU Museum at Twickenham, as the books covered both forms of "football" stating whether each team played rugby or association rules.

The curator of the museum has confirmed that he does believe he has the 1870, 1871 and 1872 copies within their archives. He's asked me to drop him a note in the New Year and he'll take a look, so I'll be sure to keep you updated and share any screenshots he's able to send.

Thanks, Stewart :happy2:
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Re: FA Cup 1871/1872

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Great news Anthony! The world of Twitter has come up trumps and returned an incredibly helpful man called Phil, who owns a series of the Alcock annuals. One being the 1871 edition and bingo, here is the Hitchin FC screenshot.
108D61A2-B339-4F1F-BC5C-6868E47B2312.jpeg
So, this seems the most likely proof yet that the FA Cup match was played in magenta and black colours, at The Cricket Club, Hitchin. Some brief initial research with the help of Hitchin Library and Matt in our social team shows that the Cricket Club was in the "Hitchin Hill" area of the town. The screenshot of the book on the history of the Cricket club looks to confirm this.
vkgYVNq3.jpg-medium.jpeg
A quick look on a few maps looks to place "Hitchin Hill" around where the Three Morehens pub is, near Stevenage Road, however this location changes a little from map to map. Here is currently the earliest we can find from 1878...
caacbe55-5b8b-4b02-ab36-73f6a5a5a6ac.jpg
Thanks,
Stewart
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